PC/Mac Version (Spoilers Will Be Moved) - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
Charamei
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From: Miles away. |
 Posted: Wednesday, 11 August 2004 09:57AM |
Quote: Posted 08/10/04 22:55:34 (GMT) by MalaksBane Quote: Posted 08/10/04 20:25:34 (GMT) by Charamei Quote: Posted 08/10/04 20:16:06 (GMT) by Greippi
What is keen?
The Keen property doubles the critical threat range of the weapon. So if it normally threatens a critical on a 20, it'll now be 19-20. 19-20 becomes 17-20, 17-20 becomes 15-20, etc.
Doubles the range, so 17-20 should become 13-20, right? And... and with Master Critical it would become, like 8 times, ehm 19-20 becoming 5-20 with keen and Master Critical???
Nope.
Threatening a critical...
On a 20 is on 1 number.
On a 19-20 is on 2 numbers.
On a 17-20 is on 4 numbers.
On a 15-20 is on 6 numbers.
Okay, I was slightly off. But I'm fairly sure the next one after 17-20 is 15-20, not 13-20. Can someone verify this?
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Noop-Ni
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Joined: 03 Dec 2003 |
Posted: Wednesday, 11 August 2004 10:12AM |
Quote: Posted 08/11/04 09:57:23 (GMT) by Charamei Quote: Posted 08/10/04 22:55:34 (GMT) by MalaksBane
Doubles the range, so 17-20 should become 13-20, right?
And... and with Master Critical it would become, like 8 times, ehm 19-20 becoming 5-20 with keen and Master Critical???
Nope. Threatening a critical... On a 20 is on 1 number. On a 19-20 is on 2 numbers. On a 17-20 is on 4 numbers. On a 15-20 is on 6 numbers. Okay, I was slightly off. But I'm fairly sure the next one after 17-20 is 15-20, not 13-20. Can someone verify this?
Well, critical strike and keen don't stack, so no 5 - 20.
I'm not sure about critical ranges, but I'll say Charamei's right, 'cause I like Chara. | |
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MalaksBane
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 SW: KotOR PC
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
From: Nederland |
Posted: Wednesday, 11 August 2004 11:05AM |
Good reason 
Okay, they don't stack so there is no point in using Critical Strike plus a keen crystal (Nextor). It was off course to good to be true.
But Nextor on 19-20 would become 17-20 (4 numbers), which is neat.
With Flurry and Master Speed and Nextor (17-20), for 4 attacks, you'd have 60% chance of getting one or more Criticals in a combat round.
Master Critical (13-20) and Master Speed, 3 attacks, with a 13-20 range, that is 80% chance on one or more criticals in a round.
Now, getting to the actual cs-damage (modifier) is a bit more involved, we'd have to calculate how frequently a cs occurs, or how frequent we can expect to get 0, 1, 2, 3 or 4 cs in a round. I could try to calculate some numbers on that, if anyone is interested. Or maybe somebody, somewhere already did that. But I'd have to be sure about the number of attacks per round with Critical/Flurry/Speed/Double-Saber combo's.
The other crystal, Opila, with the 'massive criticals', from what I've seen it doesn't do the double damage. Still, having rolls 2-6 as hit is a nice way to add a +6 attack modifier. Or am I missing something?
And I've seen it at one time (with the Heart I think) as 2-12 criticals!! (I can't check now, it's warm and after a few minutes kotor my system hangs).
Range calculation... I just take the difference and add one, for 17-20:
20 - 17 + 1 = 4
If that range is doubled to 8 I'd expect
20 - x + 1 = 8
20 + 1 - 8 = x
13 = x
So the quadruple range of Master CS on a 19-20 weapon should be 13-20.
Correct?Edited By MalaksBane on 08/11/04 11:07 | |
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Noop-Ni
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Posted: Wednesday, 11 August 2004 11:17AM |
Quote: Posted 08/11/04 11:05:08 (GMT) by MalaksBane
Okay, they don't stack so there is no point in using Critical Strike plus a keen crystal (Nextor). It was off course to good to be true.
By don't stack, I meant don't multiply. Nextor will still give you a better chance.
Quote: And I've seen it at one time (with the Heart I think) as 2-12 criticals!! (I can't check now, it's warm and after a few minutes kotor my system hangs).
It always does massive criticals of 2d6. MOTF and HOTG both give it +2 AB, but no critical improvement.
Quote: So the quadruple range of Master CS on a 19-20 weapon should be 13-20.
Correct?
Yeah, I think so. I remember people saying the best critical range is 11-20, which would be consistant with that and a keen weapon. | |
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MalaksBane
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Joined: 19 Jul 2004
From: Nederland |
Posted: Wednesday, 11 August 2004 12:30PM |
Ok, keen adds 2 two the Master Critical range. Nice enough.
Other question, are power attack and critical strike actually applied to the off-hand weapon?
It might seem 'logical' but it would also seem logical for Flurry and Speed to be applied to the off-hand, which they aren't. Has anyone ever checked this in the feedback? Or from another source? | |
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HCTwinJava
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Posted: Wednesday, 11 August 2004 03:40PM |
A 5/15 scoundrel consular with base str/dex = 10/15 should never, ever focus on melee combat with a one-hand LS!
- Critical Strike for a young scoundrel won't help much (you miss targets a lot). Instead, it helps you die faster (-5 defense will lower your already fragile defense).
- For similar reasons, when you are young, Flurry helps you very little other than helping you die faster, and will be useless to you as a high-level consular.
- Power Attack can help you when you are young (helps a lot, in fact!), but will be useless to you as a high-level consular.
Master Rapid shot with Master Two-wpn Fighting is the way such a character should go. This feat combination can help you a lot in triggering sneak attacks, which is one primary source of your physical damage after you have been a consular.
Upgraded Toughness (lvl 2 or 3) will help you stay alive when using Force Powers. Dueling (lvl 1, 2, or 3) will be very useful too. I only hope you have enough spare feats to get them all.
Also, both Snipe Shot (lvl 1) & Power Shot (lvl 1) can help you a lot throughout the game. You can get Improved Power Shot (lvl 2) for free from the headgear of a guy that you must kill to continue with the game. Power Shot will boost your damage a lot if you don't have a problem hitting your targets. Snipe Shot should not be used when you have to solo against a single tough melee enemy, because it will make you very vulnerable and its stun effect is hardly ever triggered.
Based on my actual exp, a consular with high dex can gun down her toughest enemy within 7-10 shots in close combat, while ignoring all of his melee/Force/whatever attacks (on game setting = difficult! And I do mean all of his attacks).
Pick up two best pistols, get related feats, and use a variety of 1- and 2-hand weapons as backups. You'll be unstoppable after you have reached lvl 20, - if built and equipped properly.
My answer to the original question this thread: NONE!
If you must melee, then just use whatever the game has given you (plain Attack or CS).
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RPG: ultimate challenge = immortality: solo role play through thorough exploration on highest difficulty level, no cheats, no exploits, and no death.
NWN/BG2: sorcerer is the king of magic, and sorceress the queen.Edited By HCTwinJava on 08/11/04 15:43 | |
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HCTwinJava
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Posted: Wednesday, 11 August 2004 03:43PM |
Quote: Posted 08/11/04 12:30:13 (GMT) by MalaksBane
Ok, keen adds 2 two the Master Critical range. Nice enough.
Other question, are power attack and critical strike actually applied to the off-hand weapon?
It might seem 'logical' but it would also seem logical for Flurry and Speed to be applied to the off-hand, which they aren't. Has anyone ever checked this in the feedback? Or from another source?
All these feats = Critical, Power Attack, Flurry, etc, equally apply to all of your melee weapons.
_________________
RPG: ultimate challenge = immortality: solo role play through thorough exploration on highest difficulty level, no cheats, no exploits, and no death.
NWN/BG2: sorcerer is the king of magic, and sorceress the queen. | |
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MalaksBane
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SW: KotOR PC
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
From: Nederland |
Posted: Wednesday, 11 August 2004 03:59PM |
Quote: Posted 08/11/04 15:43:23 (GMT) by HCTwinJava Quote: Posted 08/11/04 12:30:13 (GMT) by MalaksBane
Other question, are power attack and critical strike actually applied to the off-hand weapon?
It might seem 'logical' but it would also seem logical for Flurry and Speed to be applied to the off-hand, which they aren't. Has anyone ever checked this in the feedback? Or from another source?
All these feats = Critical, Power Attack, Flurry, etc, equally apply to all of your melee weapons.
So, are you saying that, as with Flurry, Power Attack and Critical Strike, do not apply to the offhand weapon? | |
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Jabbrwock
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Jade Empire
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Joined: 04 Jul 2003 |
Posted: Wednesday, 11 August 2004 05:47PM |
Power Attack and Critical Strike apply to attacks with weapons in both hands. Flurry also applies to attacks with both hands, but only for its penalty - it doesn't otherwise modify attacks at all, just generates an extra main-hand attack. Flurry will not generate an extra off-hand attack.
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"These gentle emotions, what good are they? Love, compassion, amity; what purpose do they serve? To my mind, they are socially invalid, obstacles to emotional efficiency. There is no more constructive emotion than hate." - Viton the Ruthless | |
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GoodKingJayIII
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Posted: Wednesday, 11 August 2004 07:40PM |
Keen is a term from the d20 system, which is what KotOR is based on. I can't say if the term is used in the game, but Critical Strike and Sniper Shot essentially apply the "keen" ability.
Here's my question: is the critical threat increase a passive ability of CS, or do you have to actually use the stunning property of the feat to get the improved critical as well? | |
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MalaksBane
Game Owner
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Joined: 19 Jul 2004
From: Nederland |
Posted: Wednesday, 11 August 2004 08:05PM | |
The thread increase comes with the feat, if you use Master Critical Strike, the thread range of the weapon is quadrupled. Stunning is mentioned as side effect of a successful critical hit with the Critical Strike. Edited By MalaksBane on 08/11/04 20:08 | |
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MalaksBane
Game Owner
SW: KotOR PC
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
From: Nederland |
Posted: Wednesday, 11 August 2004 10:32PM |
Mwha, I have been playing around with numbers, again. Well...
Lets set personal preferences aside and try to look at the numbers too. I've tried to 'calculate' damage ratio's for the three main melee attack feats.
The basic mechanics.
Master Flurry, gives 1 extra attack at the cost of -1 to attack and -1 to defense.
Master Critical Strike quadruples the criticical thread range of the weapon (19-20 becomes 13-20) at the cost of -5 to defense
Master Power Attck yields a +10 damge bonus at a cost of -3 to attack.
Master Power Attack adds 10 damage to a succesful attack, giving MPA the benefit of the doubt, I also assume that the MPA bonus is doubled in the case of a critical hit.
If anyone has concrete information about this, please let me know.
The heart of an attack is the 1d20 roll, like the roll of a dice with 20 sides.
From all rolls in 1d20 - which all are equally probable to occur - a roll of 1, a natural miss, does not add to the damage.
When a roll is within the critical threat range a second roll determines if it is a critical hit, which doubles the damage.
Some weapons have larger critical threat ranges, ligthsabers are on 19-20. Master Critical Strike quadruples the threat range, that of a lightsaber would become 13-20.
To calculate the damage 'ratio' the 1-20 range is split up in a 'miss' part, which does not add to the damage, a hit part, and a critical threat part. For the latter the damage is calculated by the probability of it turning into a critical hit.
Example, with a weapon with a threat range of 19-20 (and a defenseless opponent):
- 17/20 of the rolls are normal hits
- 2/20 of the rolls are threat and of these
- 1/20 is no critical hit (miss)
- 19/20 are a critical hit
and we thus get
(17/20) * DMG + (2/20)*(1/20) * DMG + (2/20)*(19/20)* DMG*2
or
DMG * ( (17/20) + (2/20)*((1/20) + 2*(19/20)) )
Attack against weak opponents
Without Master Speed, Master Power Attack (MPA) and Master Critical Strike have one attack, Master Flurry (MF) two. Lets assume for now that the opponent is very weak in defense and every roll (except 1) results in a hit. This would also apply to the secondary roll for the critical hit.
Lets name the average damage you do with your weapon 'DMG', then:
- STD (19-20): 1 * DMG * ((17/20) + (2/20) * ((1/20) + (19/20)*2)) = DMG * 1.045
- MPA (19-20): 1 * (DMG + 10) ((17/20) + (2/20) * ((1/20) + (19/20)*2)) = DMG * 1.045 + 10.45
- MF (19-20): 2 * DMG * ((17/20) + (2/20) * ((1/20) + (19/20)*2)) = DMG * 2.09
- MCS (13-20): 1 * DMG * ( (11/20) + (8/20) * ((1/20) + (19/20)*2)) = DMG * 1.33
Without Master Speed, Master Flurry does more damage than Master Critical Strike and more than Master Power Attack if
2.09 * DMG > 1.045 * DMG + 10.45
(2.09 - 1.045) * DMG > 10.45
DMG > 10
With Master Speed, all three attacktypes gain 2 attacks, so we get
- STD (19-20): DMG * 3.135
- MPA (19-20): DMG * 3.135 + 31.35
- MF (19-20): DMG * 4.18
- MCS (13-20): DMG * 3.99
With Master Speed, Master Flurry is marginally better than Master Critical Strike and better than Master Power Attack only if
4.18 * DMG > 3.135 * DMG + 31.35
1.045 * DMG > 31.35
DMG > 30
So, without Master Speed, Master Flurry is (a lot) better, but with Master Speed, Master Power Attack seems likely to prevail.
Tough opposition
Lets give our opponents some decent defense, so that not every roll > 1 is a hit.
Assume we need to roll higher than 6 to score a hit, so not only 1 misses, but so do 2 - 6. We must now also take the attack penalties into account, -1 for MF and -3 for MPA, so 1-7 misses for MF and 1-9 for MPA.
Without Master Speed
- STD (19-20): 1 * DMG * ((12/20) + (2/20) * ((6/20) + (14/20)*2)) = DMG * 0.77
- MPA (19-20): 1 * (DMG + 10) ( (9/20) + (2/20) * ((9/20) + (11/20)*2)) = DMG * 0.605 + 6.05
- MF (19-20): 2 * DMG * ( (11/20) + (2/20) * ((7/20) + (13/20)*2)) = DMG * 1.43
- MCS (13-20): 1 * DMG * ( (6/20) + (8/20) * ((6/20) + (14/20)*2)) = DMG * 0.98
Master Flurry does more damage than Master Critical Strike and will do more damage than Master Power Attack if
1.43 * DMG > .605 * DMG + 6.05
(1.43 - 0.605) * DMG > 6.05
DMG > 7.3
With Master Speed
- STD (19-20): DMG * 2.31
- MPA (19-20): DMG * 1.815 + 18.15
- MF (19-20): DMG * 2.86
- MCS (13-20): DMG * 2.94
Now Master Critical Strike is slightly better than Master Flurry and better than Master Power Attack if
2.94 * DMG > 1.815 * DMG + 18.15
1.125 * DMG > 18.15
DMG > 16.1
Master Flurry does more damage than Master Power Attack only if
2.86 * DMG > 1.815 * DMG + 18.15
1.045 * DMG > 18.15
DMG > 17.4
Conclusion
Without the speed boost the extra attack for Master Flurry does the most damage.
With Master Speed and weak opponents, Master Power Attack does the most damage.
When the opposition thoughens up, Master Power Attack looses appeal in favour of Master Critical Strike and Master Flurry.
But opposition with a high defense likely also has a high attack, in which case the -5 defense penalty for Master Critical may really begin to hurt and Master Flurry - and even the standard attack - becomes more appealing.
Nothing is easy.Edited By MalaksBane on 08/11/04 22:45 | |
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HCTwinJava
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Posted: Thursday, 12 August 2004 05:23PM |
OMG, so many #... good job!
if you could get one and only one of the three, which one would you get?
(to me, master flurry to soldier/scout, critical to scoundrel)
_________________
RPG: ultimate challenge = immortality: solo role play through thorough exploration on highest difficulty level, no cheats, no exploits, and no death.
NWN/BG2: sorcerer is the king of magic, and sorceress the queen. | |
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MalaksBane
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Joined: 19 Jul 2004
From: Nederland |
Posted: Thursday, 12 August 2004 06:01PM |
Flurry for me.
It holds better against tougher opponents than Power Attack, but doesn't have the large defense penalty that Critical Strike has. And with Flurry I don't have to cast Master Speed all the time, freeing up a combat round for immediate attack. And it looks and sound better.
Still need to look at dual-blade/sabers. How is the damage ratio between main- and off-hand? Or does it solely depend on the weapon?
I read somewhere that doublebladed sabers do more damage (and not just because of the two attacks).Edited By MalaksBane on 08/12/04 18:05 | |
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MalaksBane
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Joined: 19 Jul 2004
From: Nederland |
Posted: Monday, 30 August 2004 10:53AM |
Quote: Posted 08/11/04 11:17:42 (GMT) by Noop-Ni Quote: Posted 08/11/04 11:05:08 (GMT) by MalaksBane
Okay, they don't stack so there is no point in using Critical Strike plus a keen crystal (Nextor). It was off course to good to be true.
By don't stack, I meant don't multiply. Nextor will still give you a better chance.
Right, keen seems in line with the d20 docs, which state:
Sometimes a special rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply, however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (x2) and a double (x2) applied to the same number results in a triple (x3, because 2 + 1 = 3).
So on a 19-20 (range=2) saber with nextor the threat range multiplier is increased by one (from keen), with the cs feats it becomes become:
CS: (19-20) * ( 2 + 1 ) = 15-20
ICS: (19-20) * ( 3 + 1 ) = 13-20
MCS: (19-20) * ( 4 + 1 ) = 11-20 | |
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